The Gemini Solar Eclipse

Albert Einstein's photo of a 1919 Solar Eclipse

In the moments that June 1st’s solar eclipse forms up at 9:04pm (UT/+0) at 11 Gemini, the world does not change.

The world is already changing.

So what does the moment of the eclipse mark?

Simple…it marks the moment when all which we have been ‘realizing’ becomes a cause for ‘doing.’ And for those more reluctant or recalcitrant on the subject, a time when situations begin forcing our hand, making us do something about such things.

With this eclipse occurring at 11 Gemini, we know the issues are mental. Informational. This is about the ability to learn and learn better and/or the willingness to learn or learn better. Gemini asks us to choose who we will be through what we take on learning about and doing. In its middle (2nd) decanate, it’s all about the fervent longing to know…and the fervency of speech. From poetry to anger, communications express feelings, beliefs and urgings…many, if not most of which we should probably apply to ourselves first.

And yet...this isn't a total eclipse - it's a partial eclipse. That suggests that the effects are a bit more subtle, even if the eclipse hits your chart 'dead on,' as it were. What's the difference in broader terms? Well...maybe it's more like having someone bump into you fairly abruptly as opposed to having the rug yanked out from under you. Or all the lights coming on just as you've gotten really into the movie as opposed to being woken out of a sound sleep by all the lights AND a very loud siren going off in your ear.

In other words, it's not that the status quo isn't changing. It's the degree of....clarity with which the change is announced. Or maybe demanded of you. 

 2011 Solar Eclipse of June 1st - 9:17pm (UT/+0)

Aries Wheel/Location Not Specific

Occurring at 11 Gemini has this eclipse distanced from the lunar nodes (which are positioned at 23 degrees of Gemini and Sagittarius south-to-north respectively) which images what we are thinking as being somewhat ‘distanced’ from society itself, marking this eclipse as somewhat more personal or private than some.

Even thought January’s 13 Capricorn eclipse had the nodes at 2 Capricorn (North) and Cancer (South) the presence of Pluto at 5 Capricorn formed something of a bridge – and in that, gave us a very big clue that the key to that eclipse would be the ‘emotional experience of transformative situations’ (Pluto) involving societal (nodal) Capricorn structures (government, leaders/leadership) particularly where charismatic statements had not been carried out with commensurately satisfying deeds – this last part being all about the eclipse having been conjunct fixed star Vega.

There is no ‘bridging’ planet between the Sun and Moon’s position at 11 Gemini and the South Node at 23 Gemini. What we do have however, are some rather clear statements regarding what life is (or at least feels like) to us at this time.

The South Node (the easy way out) is conjunct Bellatrix, a fixed star known for contentious communication. The North Node (what we should do) is conjunct fixed star Ras Alhague, a difficult star which urges us to take what we have seen and learned and to respond with acts which though challenging, can be or become healing in nature.

It’s easy to see these forces at work in our worldly world. Even our private and personal world. What may or may not be as easy is seeing how these ideas apply to us as individuals.

But yes, that would be the optimal thing to do!

11 Gemini as a degree suggests that we are helped and hindered in doing this very personal work of ‘breaking through mental walls.’ Most of us will see the opportunities we have missed rather clearly – (unfortunately, we’re all pretty good at that!). Fewer of us will realize that those ‘flaws’ we see in ourselves are not finite. Why? Because it’s easier to give up on ourselves than fight whatever shape our defeatist nature may take.

And we all have one, trust me. Some people have a defeatist nature which is turned outward. We think of them as ‘go getters’ who refuse to be ‘beaten down.’ But talk to such people in a most human moment and most of the time you’ll find they’re more scared of not getting the job done than the work it takes to do the job itself. Right or wrong, they’re going to try, because the status quo – the having to live with themselves – is so difficult otherwise.

In the end, that’s who we are and what we’re all about: living with ourselves. Even those of us who are in sublimely secure relationships have to close our eyes at night. And when we do, in those moments or minutes before we fall asleep we are alone…with and within ourselves.

That’s the person we live and die with. And as.

Given that the figure of this eclipse highlights two very important fixed stars - Aldebaran and Antares – we know the balance, the discussion, the ‘debate’ going on within our lives is all about integrity (Aldebaran) and obsessions (Antares). With the Aldebaran end of this natural opposition the part being ‘blacked out’ by the eclipse, we are either now not able to rely on integrity (ours or that of others)…or we need to put exactly that out into the world.

Remember, the image of a solar eclipse has the disc of the Moon (instinct) ‘blacking out’ our source of light (the Sun). Whether this takes the form of your feeling very lacking in ‘enlightenment’ or ideas (Edisona being conjunct this eclipse), there is a certain reality now which directs us to the knowing that when it comes to our life, we’re in the driver’s seat.

If you are someone with a birthday within 5 days of this eclipse, your life is in a radical period of transformation. Your operational parameters are in flux and you should not expect to know what your future really holds for some time to come. Lunar eclipses have a life span…a ‘spinning out’ period which only lasts 3 months. But solar eclipse? They’re another thing again. Solar eclipses evolve over a period of 36 month with the real ‘knowing’ what they’re ‘about’ often not surfacing until rather near this transit’s end.

And this doesn’t mean you just sit around playing tiddlywinks until that moment comes!

If we treat them as such, eclipses are superb vehicles of personal evolution. By stripping away that which we have hidden behind or temporized with, thinking it’s ‘good enough’ or making excuses as to why we can’t change….by eradicating or imploding such 'walls’ we are hiding behind, solar eclipses allow us to in time become the person we know we should be – not that the process of making that change is always all that convenient.

Uh, probably not. Solar eclipses are not known for their genteel nature, so don’t expect a sedan chair to carry you from hither to yon and don’t expect that shedding your old mental life skin is going to come without some period of feeling exposed, tender and insecure.

The idea here would be to use or better yet, recapture the sense of integrity (Aldebaran) in healing your own life (Ras Alhague), preferably so that in going forward along your learning (Gemini) – doing, implementing, growing your life (Sagittarius) road…the idea is to be able to live with a greater integrity not just as to who you are in the minutia, but who you are in this world.

It has to work at both ends. There’s a lot of people who are polarized right now, just as Aldebaran and Antares sit in opposition. Either our external worldly life is working fine but our personal life really sucks…or we’ve figured out who we are but not how to make it work in our personal world or the worldly world.

 June 1st's global eclipse path

We do need to be who we are, no question. But this isn’t just about us. Asteroid Kallisto standing conjunct Aldebaran to the degree tells us there is a difficult passage which is to be endured between the moment when we vow to ourselves to be the person we need to be and that moment when our star rises in our mental heaven. We will get blamed, we will be misunderstood. We must simply continue on being the best us we know how to be: that’s part of what integrity (Aldebaran) is defined as at this time.

Ahead of this eclipse stands Dionysus at 12 Gemini, TNO Chaos at 13 Gemini, Sabine at 14 Gemini and fixed star Rigel at 16 Gemini. This pretty much describes the road ahead.

First, we have to undertake the task of being who we are as if it was a sacred event – and something to be celebrated in our own minds, this fact that we have finally decided to be who we need to be in order to satisfy not merely our mind or not merely our body or society or family, but all that we hold as true (Dionysus).

We accept that there are things about life – and our lives – which we do not know yet. We are willing to be inspired and become more tomorrow than we think we are today (TNO Chaos).

We understand that the world and others in this world will not always understand us, like what we are doing or approve of the fact that we have undertaken the challenge of being a slave only to our sense of inner integrity. They don’t have to agree with us, nor do we have to agree with them. All we have to do is get along and let each one find their way to be their own person in their own life (Sabine).

We know that in the end we are all charged to stand as teachers in this world, if only teachers who have to teach from the tales of personal experience (Rigel).

In last January’s eclipse, Pluto was the intervening factor between the eclipse and the societal nodes – the world we live in. Pluto is a dwarf planet of our own solar system. When I say that there is no ‘object’ which ties the eclipse to the nodes, I’m speaking of no major solar systemic object.

But yes, there is Rigel. A fixed star represents the 'backdrop' in our life...and in our mind.

Rigel…known as Beta Orion for its place in that constellation…is considered a blessing. It’s an emblem of protection and mentorship. It recalls the firm but kind guiding hand which restrains us in order to keep us from harming ourselves and which encourages us so that we do not falter in our resolve.

These energies are all around us in our world now. But more importantly, they’re within us. We have the need to grow towards our own ability to ‘be’ Rigel in our own life, our private or maybe our worldly world… and that’s going to take some effort.

For weeks now we have been feeling and thinking and seeing what needs our better comprehension. What we need to consider and reconsider.

Now we stand in a doorway opened upon a whole new world.

It’s time to step out and be on our way.

Medusa's Entrance into Cancer: A Meteoric Collective Consciousness

The Death of Medusa by Edward Burne Jones (1888-1892)

When I say ‘Medusa,’ most everybody thinks of the Perseus Problem: how to cut the head off a gorgon if looking at said gorgon (with it’s hairy head of snakes)will turn you into stone?

Ultimately the answer to that question is you reflect on where to strike…Perseus does the needed deed of killing Medusa by looking at a reflection of that which is so deadly scary and using his INTELLECTUAL power to interpret that reflection and thus deduce where the problem (Medusa) stands…a process which then allows him to take aim at the problem and ‘kill it.’

Personally, I happen to think the Medusa myth is one of the most interesting in all mythology – which would be why I’ve written a full length article about it (LINK) and why I refer to Medusa so often.

In short however (should you not be into reading a whole other mythic saga at the moment…), Medusa got into trouble by being a.) simply mortal, b.) somewhat vain and c.) irresponsible. The technicals on this are that she was had sworn to serve in the temple (the wholly holy space) of Pallas Athena, goddess of dispassionate wisdom. 

That means there’s a big sign on the temple door: taking your shoes off is optional – leaving your emotionalism outside is required. 

Pallas Athena is just not an emotional entity. She’s all logic and deduction and cooler-than-the-cucumber intellectualism.

This matter of ‘taking an oath to serve’ is, as you might realize by yesterday’s blog on Kallisto, also a  Greek myth theme. In short, if you make the promise, the promise must be kept. There are various forms of this tale throughout Greek mythology, too. Some mortals – such as Kallisto – stick to their vows and go through all sorts of grief because they do that but in the end are recognized and honored for their loyalty. Sure, it’s not always perfect, but Greek immortals, unlike modern conceptions of immortality, are not so all-danged perfect.

And who’s got this right or wrong here…? That’s pretty much up for discussion. If you think the universe should be perfect (implying it isn’t already) that’s a point of view. It just isn’t the Greek one.

Anyway…so there’s the Kallisto version of the vow (you stick to it, no matter what), there are a couple of examples where the folks resign from temple duty so they can go off and have their earthly, earthy life (which sometimes is fine, sometimes not so fine) and then there’s Medusa’s choice, which is to not only not resign from her sacred vows before violating them, but to violate them right in front of Athena’s altar.

Obviously Athena was not so jazzed by this choice, which is how the hair went all snake-hissy (which made Medusa the first person to have a ‘hissy fit,’ perhaps?) and all Medusa’s goodness turned to grief.

However! In the end, Medusa’s head (once cut off, that is) gets installed on the front of Athena’s shield. And thus we are told that sometimes just facing the truth is scary. Or – given the whole ‘reflection’ inference – that in facing the achieving of real wisdom (getting beyond Athena’s shield to the reality and into the wisdom of Athena’s guidance, presence and protection)…that we have to reflect on what makes us so scared.

Wisdom itself isn’t scary, remember? We left our emotions at the door, so it can’t be scary…’scary’ is a feeling thing. So to come into the presence of wisdom we have to first deal and set aside whatever our fears are.

And why is this all so important on May 6, 2011? Because, oh grasshopper, this is the day when the Sun stands at 15 Taurus. In other words, this is the very day at which we move across what is known as the ‘cross-quarter’ point bisecting the zodiac’s first quadrant.

As we move across this mark, we are confronted with and asked to cope with the idea of how our choices and actions, our natural self assertion and justified interest in our own life…how all that affect will affects others.

This is a concept about beginning to lay groundwork for choice – for choosing everything from what to say or not say to choosing what we want to do with our life and lifetime…which is really what the second part of the first quarter (Taurus, part two plus Gemini) synthesis is about. What will get us where we want to go? What will earn the responses and opportunities we want, and by doing so, allow us to feel better rewarded, more satisfied and happier with our life?

That is the question poised by 15 Taurus. And as someone who has a friend whose Sun sits at 15 Taurus, that’s realistically what this degree is all about. Lore talks about 15 Taurus as a degree where people come to be ‘considered’ wise (in terms of whatever planet is positioned there) because they listen, learn from and respond others in their environs. My friend is a 15 Taurus Sun who very much likes to learn from compatriots and people encountered through daily life and work – definitely with one eye on the native ‘early-degree Taurus’ desires for security and ‘belonging.’

Whatever sign we belong to in terms of any planet, however far along the sign that planet is placed, we can always deduce that this is as much of that sign as the person has learned. For the Sun to be at 15 Taurus now as Medusa enters Cancer therefore brings the steady effort of Taurus’ first ten degrees and half of Taurus’ emotional quotient brought to the matter of home, hearth, homeland, and family.

For some, this will produce a sort of whirling dervish day: life (the Sun) ‘balanced’ at the emotional Taurean mid-point is a real ‘am I doing the right thing?’ moment. In transit, Medusa has the effect of getting us to at least stop and consider.

And for some, avoid.

Considering how Kallisto and Edisona both just moved into Gemini…(those would be the past two blogs)…a lot of people will suddenly have a case of Gulping Reconsideration. You know…the ‘what have I gotten myself into?’ or ‘why did I do that when I could have done this and it wall would have been so much better?

There’s definitely a lot of tall thinking going on now - and that may well be added to by the fact that today - May 6th, is the annual height of the yearly Eta Aquarids meteor shower.

The shower itself emanates from Aquarius - specifically near the star Eta Aquarids for which this shower is named.

Aquarius - as shown above, has its own cross-quarter point. These cross-quarter points are always sensitive times when the Sun (or any other object) pushes past them which is why people who are born around (or at) the time of year when the Sun is positioned at any cross-quarter point tend to be a little bit hesitant. The 'call' is to 'move ahead'...but there is a natural human instinct to also stay with that which you already know.

As time and planets prove however, we don't get to linger. Time marches on...our only choice is to keep up or fall behind, whether in the general sense or in the march of our own life's progression.

But wait - there's more! (Yes, I have watched too many commercials...how'd you know?)...In passing Taurus' cross quarter point, we are currently not just getting the cross-quarter effect. No sirree! With fixed star Menkar currently positioned at 15 Taurus we are also presented with our own fears or concerns centering on our ability to be an individual...against wanting to be accepted by those around us and in our world. 

 Constellations Taurus (top) and Cetus (bottom). Shown both in part,

it's enough to see how fixed star Menkar lies along a longitude which

would be (currently) sitting astride Taurus' midpoint at 15 Taurus.

Remember: the zodiac is a 'circle' drawn through the heavens "level"

with Earth's orbit around the Sun...a path known astronomically (and

astrologically) as the 'ecliptic.' Only constellations which lie on or across

this line are included as zodiac signs - which is why when, a couple of months

ago the old 'rumor' about Ophiuchus arose (again!) all the astrologers

chorused 'NO!' in 12 part harmony.

One other note here...off to the left you may see Bellatrix, a trying point in

Gemini, above which is the end of the name "Betelgeuse" which, also

in Gemini was simply cropped off as I took this screen shot of

Taurus and Cetus. Since we've talked so often about Bellatrix and

Betelgeuse, I thought you might like to see approximately where they

are in this discussion, so as time goes on you can become more and more

familiar with what's 'up there' when you go outside into the starry, starry night!

So to have this happening as Medusa moves into Cancer, a sign which (among other things) summons up everything from our childhood issues to our most childish instincts?

You could see why this would be a bit of a splutterful moment, right?

And when we double back to the idea that Kallisto in Gemini tend to give us twinges of 20/20 hindsight...and that Edisona in Gemini is a time when we are searching for ideas or being given to know how well we’re doing in our own mind (or not) this could be a trying, testing moment.

It actually could be testy too...but that's most likely where you (or someone else) hasn't deal with their own fear of knowing. You know, their own Medusa?

Yet…this is certainly not all bad news. No - not at all! One of the things to remember about Medusa is that she realized there was a cost for her transgressions. She broke her vows by having immortal relations with Neptune in Athena’s temple and for that was punished. But once she realized what she had become she didn’t go around taking her own grief out on others. And that’s where Medusa’s story parts with that of Godzilla munching Tokyo and other such tales. The person who says ‘they done me wrong and I’m going to take it out on everybody else!’ is not Medusa.

Medusa has a conscience. She moves far, far away so that her terribleness will not be inflicted on others. She doesn’t even fight much when Perseus turns up.

Medusa is not vengeful. As frightening as Medusa becomes, she is also merciful.

And that suggests that the passage of Medusa through Cancer will bring us all to recognize some of the scary things in and about life – and do what needs doing to deal with them. Maybe even while making sure others don’t know what we’re up to.

About the time July’s solar eclipse (in Cancer) rolls around, Medusa will be conjunct Mercury in the last couple of degrees of Cancer. Considering Mercury in Cancer is always emotional thinking and speech and how the end of any sign is how we react to life and events, this cold be a pretty emotional time. We may all be tempted to just tuck in and ‘not look.’

But remember…that’s not the plus of Medusa. That’s not what we’re supposed to learn. When Medusa dies, her children (with Neptune) spring forth to play their part in our world. One is Chrysaor – a savage guardian, initially of sheep (i.e., those among us who will not think for ourselves). The other is Pegasus, the winged horse which in symbolizing our flights of (thoughtful) fancy is destined to give good service to a mere mortal.

The Birth of Pegasus and Chrysaor

by Edward Burne Jones (1876-1885)

The mythical Pegasus, though every bit as beautiful as we like to think is not innately ‘thoughtful’ in himself. Captured by Bellerophon (grandson of grand sinner Sisyphus), Pegasus aids Bellerophon in killing the Chimera…which happens to be the offspring of Chrysaor.

Then again, from this line also come the centaurs – a whole race of beings whose challenge was to unify their great animalistic strength with human(e) intelligence and not simply to use their smarts to get what they wanted on an animalistic level.

These ideas are important because they help us understand the legacy of Medusa – and why she is just not a girl with truly scaly hair in search of a good conditioner. Medusa is more about the human condition in the sense that we each embody it. Do we work towards only our own pleasure – or for the good of all, from which comes our acceptance and ultimate security?

Kallisto in Gemini: Are We Beastly?

 Landscape with Diana and Kallisto (cropped)

by Cornelis van Poelenburgh (17th century)

As Kallisto enters Gemini on 1:47pm (UT/+0) on May 5th, we all ‘change gear.’ With the Sun currently about at mid-Taurus (just a day shy of same, if truth be told) this is the astrological moment in which we would be recognizing that what we do (and things we may hold as dearly important) really do affect others. And to the extent that they do…to the extent that we impose our belief, our will, our standards and values on others, we stand to be critiqued and judged accordingly.

What this is then…this is a moment in which to become (Gemini/mentally) aware of our Self. Not ourselves…our Self. And how that Self is seen by others. Or experienced by others, if, when and as what we do affects them.

On the face of it, Kallisto’s story is all about being the innocent, morally upstanding bystander: she’s taken an oath to serve Artemis (Diana) - the goddess of the Moon, the hunt and chastity. And Kallisto (most often spelled ‘Callisto’ in myths) is going about her obedient way when she gets ‘noticed’ by Jupiter.

And hey, there’s nothing like being noticed by Jupiter. King of Olympus and also known as Zeus, Jupiter very definitely has an eye for the ladies. He’s all about knowing them (in the biblical sense) which metaphysically we translate in the planetary sense – seeing that Existence is universal – into knowing one’s world, one’s Self and comprehending why we are as we are, and how to do what it is we value as important. 

Greek myth (like all other “pagan” myths) being about embodiments of facets of the All (Existence) in individual form, Zeus isn’t by definition all knowing. No, this is one king-of-the-gods who learns about life through the experience thereof…which gets us back to his wanting to experience (in particular) all the lovely young thangs he meets up with here and there when on his travels.

Unfortunately for Zeus, his wife (Hera, aka Juno) objects to philandering…but apparently not enough to divorce him, which makes sense if you think of all the Greek gods as facets of our psychology. We may deny ourselves (asteroid Lilith)…we may even deny facets of our world (calculated Lilith). But we know when we’re crossing our own boundaries. We know when we’re breaking our own ‘rules.’

That’s the Jupiter/Hera thing.

So Jupiter does what Jupiter does – he comes down to ‘get to know’ Kallisto a little bit better.

Okay – a lot better. And Kallisto, being a mere mortal, is in no position to object, resist or otherwise defend herself from this ‘invasive life force’…which is much the same as we all deal with in life. Stuff happens. We’re forced to deal with it. It’s beasty! But can we avoid it? No!

So Zeus does what Zeus does and that sets off a giant fracas. Hera is ticked, Artemis is any too happy – and since they’re gods and Kallisto is a mortal, Kallisto is the one who pay the price: Hera turns her into a beast. A bear, to be exact.

And yes, that is her price to bear.

(Sorry, but some puns just can’t be avoided!)

At the end of all things, after much harassment and having to learn a whole new furry lifestyle, Kallisto is forgiven. But in this instance, what has been done cannot be undone…which should tell us that Kallisto the astronomical/astrological asteroid points to life situations and occurrences which can be gotten past…but not erased.

The “damage”…be it to our innocence or reputation or conscience – that is done. But since in the end Kallisto is made into a constellation (Ursa Major, the much loved Big Bear), if we will persevere, if we will accept and move on there is the possibility that we can become a star in some new way, in some new avenue of life.

With yesterday’s blog having been about Edisona entering Gemini we know this is a moment for new ideas and new forms of ‘awareness.’ And this may be on our part, or it may be brought to us – even enforced upon us. Since this is in Gemini, what we have thought or said or chosen to do/not do is like as not what we are dealing with now.

Whether you’re in the ‘taking the oath’ stage, a ‘being overcome’ state, the ‘transformation into a beast’ part of the story, anywhere along a mental-mindful road to acceptance of something which you’ve done or which has happened in your life…or even if you’re now being set among the stars – that’s individual. Given that Kallisto has an orbital period of 4.37 years, you might do well to ask yourself what you were doing half of that time ago (2.18…or a little over 2 years ago). Or a quarter turn ago – just a bit more than a year ago. Did you embark upon something? Was there a turn of events then?

If we think of Kallisto’s story, it rather does have four phases: she takes the oath, she’s violated by Zeus and turned into an animal, she exists as an animal and then is ‘resurrected’ (if you will) as a star.

Kallisto and Jupiter (or) Jupiter notices Callisto

by Nicolaes Pietersz Berchem (1621-1683)

We all go through these cycles. Yours are told through wherever Kallisto is natally in your chart. House, sign, aspects...you know the drill. We're all always somewhere along this road - for better (ultimately) and for not worse, but more realistic, more sobered...more - maybe - mature as we go along?

And if you don’t know where that is and want to? For that I suggest using the link to Serennu.com in the side bar (under ‘Free Charts’) Just follow the directions. The easiest format to read is the ephemeris ‘list’ format (not the chart) and since Serennu is based in Wales your birth date needs to go into the software generator in day/month/year format (not month/day/year).

The point we’re talking about here is a main belt asteroid. Considering that Kallisto’s ultimate (aphelion) reach finds it in the company of Eurydike (the cost of the thing), Kassandra (the truth which is not believed until proven true) and not all that far from where Circe spells which render us animalistic give way to a more ‘clarified’ and humanistic/humane (read: less selfish, less carnal) as we enter the realm where Eos (the dawning of instinctual understanding/understanding of how instinct works), carries us beyond Amor (platonic love) and Scylla (being eaten up by craven vengeance)….

Kallisto probably stands for our own ability to weather our worst behavior. Now entering Gemini – where it will be until August 1st – we are being put up against our ability to grasp who we are, who we have been, what we could be…and to reconcile the polarity, the very distance between how we wish life would be (and dream it could be) with our ability to damage that life through trying too hard, through trying to fit every situation and person into a single ‘cookie cutter’ concept….by being unwilling to accept that some ideas work, others don’t.

And that life changes.

With two solar eclipses on the way and Kallisto’s transit of Gemini pretty much enfolding them both, we’re likely to see a lot of pretty bad behavior in our world. We’re likely to have situations and opinions and necessities and realities thrust upon us which we don’t want to deal with and yet we have no power to resist (the Zeus factor of life). We may even realize where we have done things which were and remain totally wrong…and yet we can’t change them.

The question isn’t whether you walk away from the place, the person or the situation – the real question Kallisto now poses in moving into mental/choice oriented Gemini is whether you are willing to grapple with who you are and who you are willing to require that you become.

When did being a person get to be so hard? Well, considering what the Greeks have given us as a body of mythic literature…at least a very long time.

And maybe longer. Maybe even since time began?